Overheard at Starbucks

Yes you are. You are missing the fact that you are a good person, regardless of your belief. It is not your belief that make you the person you are. If you didn’t believe there was something more to come, you still wouldn’t do those things you describe. A belief and a faith is an aspect of Jay Kerr, but it does not define him.

I’d agree with you that you can be a good/great person regardless of what you believe.

In terms of a faith or a belief system, I think this is what defines a lot of people, to a point. It would be silly to generalize and say that ‘Tom is a Scientologist and he likes to jump on sofas.’ Okay bad example.

My point, of course, is that it isn’t biblical proscriptions that stop us from doing bad things. I don’t make false oaths, or bear false witness. I don’t cheat on my wife. I don’t lie, murder or steal. I honour my parents. I don’t covet my neighbours’ wives, or houses, or asses. Ok, so I’m a bit negligent on the whole sacrificing the firstlings of the flock thing, but all in all, I think I’m a “good person.” Yet, according to your post, because I don’t believe in a life after death, during which I will be judged, I shouldn’t be. Your logic is faulty.

It’s OK. It isn’t your fault. But, you can choose to allow it to continue, or you can learn to examine critically things that you have been told, and up until now, have accepted unquestioningly.

Twenty wives? Are you nuts? Tell me you said that for Lissa’s benefit.

I’d have no wife and no daughter. They would have left me long ago. I’d have no money because I would have spent it on stuff to keep me amused like cars and sailboats and motorcycles. I’d be lonely I guess but occupied working all hours to support my spending. I’d be bored and unfulfilled so I’d seek out risk to cheat death to feel as though I accomplished something. In seeking risk, I’d be brash and abusive and full of my self. And I’d drink a lot. And probably lose my license to drive again which would be terribly depressing. I’d be living in a one room rental by myself with all my possessions in a box or in the trunk of my car which now sits in the underground because I lost my license. But I’d be super fit because of the hours I’d spend at the gym and the added cycling which is now necessitated because I lost my license. I wouldn’t have any friends because I’m not naturally inclined to like people. And neighbours would talk about that strange old guy that lives by himself in that one room rental. Or maybe the neighbours wouldn’t care at all and the strange old guy would just become paranoid thinking that people were thinking and talking about him. And then one day, the strange old guy might binge on chewing tobacco and die in his sleep having choked on his vomit. He would go to hell and no one would care.

This sounds a lot like me before I met Christ.

Gary, always the joker.

Some of the stuff you wrote is a little contradictory. You say, “in seeking risk, I’d be brash and abusive and full of my self” but you already are brash and full of yourself.

A few of the other things you wrote about sound vaguely familiar like the strange neighbour and the bit about the chewing tobacco.

I think faith is about journey. God is interested in our journies. The journey seems kind of meaningless otherwise - and boring.

It depends on what we think of as “destination” in this case. If we think the destination is to be with Christ, then sure that’s important, but also out of our hands save a choice or two. But very often believers think of the destination as being some sort of Jesus Christ Super-Follower, one who loves and prays and has a golden halo and never struggles with anything, ever, let alone sin or doubt - or who knows how to deal with everything pronto. In that sense, the destination is not only unimportant, it’s unrealistic.

I think God is just as concerned with wether or not I smile at the guy at Taco Bell as if I fast or pray.

Gah, this is jumbled. Let me get caffeine and be back.

Shiz wrote: “The journey seems kind of meaningless otherwise.” This is an argument from personal incredulity. Because it seems that way to me, therefore it is that way. This is a common logical fallacy. It is the same one Jay committed in the original post, simply stated a different way.

My cousin told me you are an English major and yet you said:

“An older man and woman (probably in their 50s) was talking about a friend….”

shouldn’t you have written “… WERE talking about a friend.”????

My cousin is your buddy JB

To JB’s cousin, you’s write. I hope York University don’t take away my English degree.

Paul, you have some good arguments here. To be honest, I haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about ‘both sides’. I made a few assumptions about the Starbucks conversation and my comments were a little ‘over the top’ to provoke discussion.

So far I think we have some interesting views on what a few people believe. I think that only I can say whether I believe in something unquestionably and I don’t.

Critical thinking? Of course. It’s one of the things they actually teach you at York University (besides English).

I know that there are a lot of people that grow up believing things, never question them and accept them because their parents did. Bombippy ain’t one of those people but I bet you could find a lot of them in the Republican party in the mid-west. But now I’m generalizing and that’s not a good thing.

Sorry to sound belligerent up there, but you pushed one of my buttons. The “without God life can have no meaning” canard is a very common and popular piece of the anti-atheist rhetoric that is being flung around these days.